Grand Slam Journey

69. Eve Psalti: Are we on the eve of an AI revolution?, Leadership, and Empowering Women

• Klara Jagosova • Season 3

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Ever pondered the intersection of technology and human creativity? Join me as I sit with Eve Psalti, a luminary from Microsoft Azure AI and ex-Google Cloud guru who passionately advocates for women's ascent in tech leadership. Our spirited exchange traverses the landscape of self-advocacy and confidence for women, distinguishing the finesse of networking for career upliftment from the simple joys of friendship-building. With Eve's remarkable insight drawn from her roles and serving on the WE Global Studios board, we carve a path through the entangled forest of gender equality and leadership in the tech wilderness.

The tapestry of Eve's journey is woven with threads from her Greek heritage, academic leaps across continents, and the bold embrace of new challenges that have shaped her illustrious career trajectory. Our conversation meanders through her cultural adaptations, the decisions that charted her course, and the influence of personal identity on professional success. We uncover the essence of navigating through the non-linear paths of growth and how embracing curiosity and ambition can lead to profound transformations in both business and life.

As we cast our gaze forward, we delve into the transformative potential of AI in revolutionizing industries like healthcare and education. We dissect how AI tools enhance efficiency yet underscore the importance of vigilant engagement with these tools to avoid biases and safeguard human ingenuity. Wrapping up, we glimpse the horizons of 2024, discussing the power of gratitude, the necessity of lifelong learning, and the riches of community involvement. Eve and I share insights on weathering the storms of failure, the virtues of a growth mindset, and the impactful role of mentorship. Each word in this episode is a stepping stone toward a future where AI and empowered leadership coalesce to shape an inspiring 2024.

Connect with Eve: LinkedIn, Twitter

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Eve:

We have to break a couple of molds to make sure that we bring women at the same level of opportunities as other groups. A lot of times I see women that they're not advocating for themselves and I think probably we demonstrated it even in the call, where we were self-doubting or we were double guessing. I think we have to feel comfortable to communicate and celebrate our skills, our achievements. I know it might feel like chest thumping, but I think it's essential. You have to communicate your own words and you have to let others know. The other thing that I feel like we don't do a lot or we don't do it in the right way is networking and relationship building.

Eve:

Networking is key, but I feel like a lot of times women confuse networking for creating friendships and affiliations and I think there is a big difference. Networking is very crucial for advancing your career, advancing your personal brand. It's almost like a full-time thing that you need to be committed and you need to have a goal. Networking is not leading to friendship, or it can, but that's not the goal. You should be very intentional about who you network, why you network with them, where you're trying to get out of it and really lead the engagement and the other thing that I'm guilty myself to be honest is confidence and assertiveness. We need to make sure that we are asserting ourselves in a certain way, and this means using a certain language.

Klara:

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Grand Slam Journey podcast, where we discuss various topics related to the Grand Slam Journey of our lives, finding our passion and purpose, realizing our potential and growing our skills and leadership, and whatever we decide to put our minds into. For my guest today, Eve Psalti , areas of business and technology. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share with someone who you believe may enjoy it as well. Consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or any other podcasting platform where you listen to the episode. If you are someone who enjoys following video, feel free to find this episode on YouTube.

Klara:

At Grandslamjourney, this is your Kl ara Jagosova. Thank you for tuning in, and now I bring you, Eve Psalti. Hello, yves, happy Friday. Welcome to the Grinslam Journey podcast. Hi, Klara, good to see you again. Thanks for having me. Oh, thank you.

Klara:

I'm so looking forward to talking to you about all things related to your career, obviously AI, which you're on the forefront of scaling and creating with Microsoft and many other partners, and many other topics, obviously related to women in tech. I know it's a cause you're very interested in and you're supporting, and so I'm curious where this conversation takes us, because I have many things I wanted to ask you, but maybe first I'll read a quick intro. Ev e Psalti has has 20 year tech and business leadership experience, currently the senior director at Microsoft Azure AI engineering organization, responsible for scaling and commercializing artificial intelligence solutions. You're previously the head of strategic platforms and Google Cloud, where you and I have met, so I'm privileged through my career, to have met leaders like you, where you worked with Fortune 500 companies, helping them grow their businesses through digital transformation initiatives. Prior to Google, you have helped business development, sales, and marketing leadership positions at Microsoft and startups across the US and Europe, leading over 200 people teams and $600 million businesses.

Klara:

In native of Greece, which I love the country, I hope we're going to dive into it a little bit more too. You hold a master's degree in several technology and business certifications from London Business School and the University of Washington. You cruelly serve on the board of we Global Studios, a full stack startup innovation studio supporting female entrepreneurs. Please handing it over to you. Anything you want to add? I forgot.

Eve:

Well, thank you so much for the kind introduction. It's almost embarrassing and you know you're old when your intro takes more than four minutes. No, I think you've covered. That was a good summary of the kind of things that I've done. To be honest, at heart I consider myself an immigrant who is always curious, always driven. I want to learn and do new things and, yeah, I think my searlessness and my ambition probably led me to do the things that I've done and I keep doing.

Klara:

I love that addition and that's definitely a value I have always seen in you since we have met and obviously being privileged to have met you when we were together when you were at Google, I was at Ericsson and kind of seeing how you creating your career and finding ways that support your mission and you really believe it becomes so intended. But stretching yourself to what is the next thing you're curious and passionate about is definitely something that I am looking up to and is like, oh, what would you do? So I have many questions related to your career journey, but I typically want to start my podcast understanding a little bit about your abroad and, if you look back, greece is an amazing country. Obviously it's been the cradle of western civilization in many ways, from philosophy to education to democracy. So I'm actually curious how you are bringing. Growing up in Greece shaped you and some of the values I know you've always been passionate about education and many of these programs and how you found passion in business and technology.

Eve:

Yeah, that's a great question. Definitely because I spent the first 22 years of my life in Greece. It definitely shaped me in a specific way and I think a couple of characteristics is that my mother was an educator, so we grew up appreciating how education gives you opportunities, how it opens doors and it shapes you as an individual. That definitely connected a lot of dots for me down the line. Also, I think coming from a small country, from a smaller economy, makes you a little bit more scrappy. You find kind of like trying to create opportunities for yourself in an environment where resources and opportunities are scarce. So I think these are the two elements that I can point from my childhood. That kind of like created a lot of the right conditions for what I did down the line.

Klara:

Anything specific about technology, because you've always kept in the center how to use technology for, obviously, business, innovation and advancing the human cause in education or other areas.

Eve:

Yeah, I mean that's a good point, because back then technology looked much more different than it is now and I was always very curious. I think that was kind of like the element there. So I was experimenting with new tools, new gadgets, things that are in the market. I went to school and started programming with languages that no longer really exist, although one, cobalt, is still in wide use. So I always, kind of like, was interested not only in the novelty that technology brings, but also in the efficiency that it brings. And also, you know, when you study software and engineering, you kind of figure out a way of thinking that helps you make decisions and structure things in other areas too.

Klara:

Was that common in Greece to be part of this technology interest, or anybody who influenced you towards it? How did you uncover that passion early on?

Eve:

I think I was just curious myself. Like I come from a household you know nobody had any background in technology. My father was a medical doctor, my mother was an educator. I think both my brother and I kind of like, grew up being very curious and trying to experiment with different things and although it was a very conservative environment, it was also encouraged. So yeah, I can't pinpoint a particular individual or a particular kind of like situation outside of the fact that you know we grew up in a household where we were encouraged to experiment and try new things.

Klara:

So I guess, on the note of experimenting, trying new things and following your curiosity, I'm actually curious how did you get from Greece to pursue education?

Eve:

in the US, I think how it came about. I mean, I always wanted to study business and technology but the options back then in Greece were quite limited, so I started taking advantage. Actually, before I came to the US I took advantage of a program that was sponsored by the European Union which was targeted for young workers. So I did a year in the Netherlands which opened a lot of options for me. It was great to kind of like live Greece and see how you can live and be independent and, you know, try things in a different country. That was kind of culturally diametrically different than Greece, and also it provided an option for me to continue on that journey. That was not really clear before. So after coming back from the Netherlands, I had the bug. So I had to kind of like figure out what the next thing was. So I started researching different universities in the US where I could study business technology also in kind of like, you know, in a cost effective way. So I changed a couple of universities actually and because I was taking advantage of the different scholarships and that's kind of like how, I ended up in North Carolina. I started in the University of Charlotte in North Carolina, so UNCC, and then I graduated from Quinn College and, yeah, I mean it was a great experience.

Eve:

Again, living from Greece to go to the Netherlands was like a huge kind of like culture shock. And then going from the Netherlands to North Carolina, which is not the most kind of like progressive part of the country, necessarily, was also a cultural shock. But again, I think it kind of, like you know, it provided me the ability to get a college education, which I always wanted, and also the ability to travel, to live abroad, to experience new cultures and new ways of living and also challenge myself. It wasn't easy to, you know, start brand new in an environment that was not necessarily familiar. And also, you know, I was trying to, like you know, I was doing two different jobs. I was going to school more than full time. I think I graduated in two and a half years with a great point average of like 3.9 something. So I was like really in a almost in a hurry to kind of, like you know, get this through and go to the next step.

Klara:

I'm curious how was your English? Just now you mentioned you started in North Carolina, which I landed in Texas. I thought I knew English when I came to US and I didn't at all. I felt like I was asking excuse me after every other or second word, because actually in Europe we also use the British English and actually studying in English and traveling for tennis tournaments and just doing the regular business as far as where can I live and how do you find some food and tennis courts is very different. So I'm curious how your journey was and even acclimatizing to the language overall.

Eve:

Yeah, the good thing, coming from a country that nobody else speaks the language, is that you get to speak other languages pretty fast. So, because nobody speaks Greek and also Greek, greece was always, like you know, a country that lived primarily on tourism. We were exposed to English speaking. You know groups, individuals, probably all of our lives. So even if you go to Greece now, like you know, you will see that there is a huge percentage of the pop population that is very fluent in English or at least one other language. So English was never really an issue. Yes, the accent was always interesting and, to be honest, it made me question myself, like you know, am I the one or not using the language right? Because in the everyday interactions, as you mentioned, like you know, people make you repeat things and says oh, you know, I didn't catch that. So it makes you a little bit self conscious, but it opens another door. I think it's an opportunity to, kind of like, learn something new and add a feather to your cup.

Klara:

And I think that's also that you mentioned you transferred a few universities to kind of take advantage of the scholarships, which I think it's so courageous. Just also looking at my own journey, I've had several opportunities to transfer during my college years in Texas and I have to say I never took the opportunity for several reasons, including one. I think there was a little bit of fear for me starting over because it takes so much to get used to the environment. You're in at least even the first year, and you just find some friends and so you actually take in the step and say you know what, I just need to transfer, and you do continue. I think that alone speaks volume about your courage and just ability to try new things. Were you second guessing at that point? Or where is the mindset? How were you adjusting to different environments?

Eve:

To be honest, I was never really proud of this choice. I was more pragmatic than anything else. I don't recommend it. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this. I think it's a personal choice. I just didn't want to end up with, like you know, a huge student loan. I saw a lot of my peers accumulating. So I was trying to be pragmatic and of, like you know, finish college and not end up with a huge loan. So I didn't really even consider the cost of starting over or friendships and all of that. I think it was more driven by graduating rather than creating a more relaxed environment for me leaving the college life. But again, if I were to do it all over again, I don't know if I would do it the exact same way. And also it's a personal choice. I think going to college and experiencing college life I think it's a great thing you only get to experience once. So again, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this.

Klara:

You mentioned. You don't know if you would do it the same way. I'm curious if you would back at it, anything you would change or something that really stood out to you. You think, if I just did this one thing differently, this is what.

Eve:

I would do. Now I don't know. I don't like to second guess myself and I kind of own every decision that I made, whether it was a good one or a bad one, because at that point of time, given all the things that I knew and all the things that were happening at the same time, I took the best decision that I thought it was appropriate. So if I had to do it all over again, then it means that all the other conditions would be different and probably the decision would be influenced as well.

Klara:

Yeah, I love that thinking because I've gone back and forth. I have to say in my life I would change one thing still looking bad, but I do know if I would change it it would trigger a whole change of reaction and I don't ever know if I would end up in a better or worse or the same situation. I would have to say which one would you change? I would have definitely transferred. So after my freshman year I had several opportunities from universities, including getters of Pepperdine, ucla, baylor, usf, so I had a few opportunities that were kind of offering me to take on scholarship and compete in some ways in tennis on a better level. Oh wow. And actually the reason why I didn't take it was related to kind of starting over, but also I think I was second guessing whether I actually belong to in some ways, to the higher level of group or people that I thought were better off.

Klara:

And so what I have learned, and I know implement, is that you always have to make decisions based on the opportunity, never make a based on fear. If you make a decisions based on fear, it's kind of the wrong way to make decisions. And so every decision ever since, including career decision, I tried to look at what's the opportunity, and if I'm not scared enough about the job or the opportunity, then I feel like it's not big enough obstacle for me to move into. So the more terrified you are about your future progressions, I think, the better off you are. It means you're moving to the right direction, at least for me personally, I love that.

Eve:

Yes, it's a very tough decision to make, but I think it's always yield great results of personal growth and I kind of like the fact that you're saying that oh, you know, I was second guessing myself, because I think we all did. I find that women second guess themselves more often and more intensely than men or other groups. I think we are conditioned to be more perfect, we're conditioned to follow a certain path and we're conditioned to only speak or make decisions or have opinions after doing extensive research, after being kind of like 150% sure of what we're saying or what we're doing. And it's unfair, it's unfair on us and I think it creates more angst than opportunity for us. I agree.

Klara:

I have definitely sensed as well the perfectionism, including with just my podcast. When I started podcasting first, it was the worst thing was to get to listen to my own voice, and so you have to overcome that in your own head. And actually now my next chapter is now moving to video podcast, which I love. I finally overcame my fear and I love that this conversation will be streamed on YouTube and anyone can follow it video too. But took me probably a year to work through my own fear of like, oh my gosh, what will my facial expressions be? It's never the guest, it's usually just related to my own self and how I view myself.

Eve:

But I love everything you shared and I resonate with it personally, it's true, I still don't like the sound of my own voice. I'm trying to come to terms with my never changing accent, because I've been in the country since 95 and the accent is prominent. Is there, like you know? Is it annoying me? No, do I think about it?

Klara:

Yes, Am I proud of it? No, I resonate with you too. I feel like I'm right in the sort of position where my English will never be perfect and I'm forgetting slightly my check. I mean, I'm good with conversing with my mom and my sister, but obviously business check doesn't exist, so it's actually interesting. I feel like I'm kind of in between and belong nowhere, but I love your accent. Just to comment, I think it's always just related to how we view ourselves versus how we look at others.

Eve:

You're absolutely right. I feel exactly the same way. I think we know we have like parallel paths in some ways, because I feel like I'm considered a foreigner in a country that I lived most of my life In the US, and also a foreigner when I go back home in Greece, given that, you know, I haven't lived there since 95. So it's kind of like a very interesting kind of way to be in this type of limbo where you have affinity to two different countries, two different cultures, but you don't 100% belong to one.

Klara:

It also really makes you think about maybe the uniqueness and in many ways I'm gonna use the word not fitting in, because you're kind of in your own bubble. How do you think about that if, as you reflect on your past, or even now, as you're shaping your career in technology and especially area of the generative AI, or do you consider that or think about?

Eve:

it at all. I'm trying to challenge myself to kind of like be comfortable in both worlds. I mean, obviously, my life and my job and most of my interactions are in the US, but I in the past, kind of like you know, several years I tried to reconnect with you know work that is being done in Greece. I feel like I'm interested in connecting back to a lot of organizations, a lot of groups that are really investing in the country. They're investing in the future of the country, whether it's independent groups, governmental groups, technology associations. So this is kind of like an interest for me and that's kind of like a way to reconnect with a part of myself, of my personal and also professional life. I didn't pay as much attention in the past 20 years.

Klara:

I actually had that thought when you were posting at your future conferences. I believe there's a conference in Athens that you're going to attend and talk about this new technology that you're driving globally with the biggest company in the world, microsoft over, took out of easily. Ai is the trend and everybody says it is because of the future that you're building with all of the technology that it's unlocking next level of productivity, effectiveness, creativity I'm going to pause there because you're the expert on it, but we're going to dive into next. But how does it feel to go back?

Eve:

It's always great and it's amazing to see the new generation really changing the country right. And what I see, which is like a fascinating and I'm really really glad that this is happening, is when I left the country, it was a little bit frowned upon to kind of leave right for many reasons, and now I see individuals kind of like newer gen generations that either finishing school and college in Greece or they're going abroad and then coming back. So I feel like there's not like the brain drain that we saw 20 years ago, but now people are coming back for whatever reason, right, but they realize that Greece is kind of like, you know, is a great place to live. It's a great place to be healthy and active, you know, many days of sunshine, beautiful and environment, so it's not like a bad place to live, but it's also becoming, you know, I think there are changes in the business side. That and conditions that attract these individuals to come back and start their own businesses in Greece, whether they are, you know, business in the cities or even in the countryside, and it's really encouraging.

Eve:

I hope that the government continues to support them, because a lot of times bureaucracy can get in the way of doing things right and fast and, you know, and enabling people to like realize their dream. But more and more I see this trend, which is really encouraging, and that's why I'm affiliated with a couple of groups that support this, because eventually this will help the country grow In the right direction. And, you know, it's great to see the Gen Z is returning and not doing what I'm doing.

Klara:

Yeah, it's nice that some people actually go back. I always say if more people were like me, check tradition would die, because I'm just really bad and keep that with any check tradition.

Klara:

So it's nice and that some people still go back or stay in the country and continue To have this uniqueness, which I love, when I travel around the world to experience the unique cultures and how people do things. Maybe, on that note of technology, let's dive a little bit deeper into what you do now. I've been very passionate recently about the large language models, so the generative AI trend. I've been trying to follow what you write on LinkedIn and I know there's much happening when it comes to what this could do for us as a humanity, as well as technology advancements, and maybe even in relation to Greece and the next level of what Greece economy can achieve. What are you most optimistic about and what would you maybe even everybody to know about it.

Eve:

Yeah, that's a great question and a big, big topic. Generative AI really exploded in the past couple of years, right, and this large language models kind of like you know the notion that you can interact with an AI system and get a lot of accurate results back. It really changed the way that we work, that we think, that we go to school, that we look for information. Of course, there are several challenges that we're gonna talk about, but what I'm most optimistic about is like that I see how this technology is really improving the way that we do a lot of things like. Let's take in that, for example, healthcare. These AI models are so accurate and so advanced that they can help improve diagnostics. It can help with pro providing you know, personalized medicine. It can help with providing personalized treatment outcomes. The fact that this machine learning models can analyze vast amount of medical information can lead to more accurate diet diagnosis, right, so this is like this is huge. Then we have in mostly kind of like the business side. It can increase the efficiency of the individual.

Eve:

So I always see AI as a tool, as a copilot, as we said Microsoft rather than the end of all. It might not be a hundred percent right, but is it a tool that will save you time? It will help you automate routine tasks, it can help you streamline processes and it will Enhance your personal efficiency. Absolutely, and in the larger scheme, if you're a corporation, it can save money, it can increase the productivity of your groups and it can help you be more competitive in the marketplace, right?

Eve:

Also, in areas where we don't see, where it's not really that evident, is education, which has always been a very traditional sector and a little bit, you know, fearful of new pack. We see that education is being transformed through AI because it can help with personalized learning. It can really free up the educator to spend more time in the classroom with the students adapting to their own personal needs rather than doing kind of like repetitive tasks. So there are a lot of efficiencies that, again, if we use it and we understand it as a tool, it can help with our everyday tasks and it will help us free up time to do the more important things that we humans are great at.

Klara:

Yeah, I love that. Just to touch on maybe all of the industries or examples you've shared. Definitely healthcare I've been part of Apple Health and not to share anything proprietary. But one thing this has come in knowledge that everybody can look at just third party data and research. There's a huge decline in nurses, obviously because of the shortage and the one out that went through COVID, as was doctors.

Klara:

There's more and more people aging, I believe by 2050. The amount of population of people who are age 65 and above will more than double. And then you have also this knowledge gap, as was the health system gap, of who will take care of this aging population and how best to take care of them. And so doctors are forced more and more to be more effective and more efficient and they don't have actually even the time needed to often dedicate the time that the people would want to have spent with the doctor because they're also pressured for this efficiency. I believe many listeners have friends who are doctors. I hear from my friends who are doctors that they're so being driven to this oh, you only have like 30 minutes with this person and that's all you can spend, and so if you have that, how can I use these tools to actually be more accurate and helps support them. So I 100% agree and I love actually seeing that the healthcare is adopting this technology so early on, because I find they're typically one of the more hesitant industries, which kind of makes sense because they're dealing with health data, but I do love seeing this trend.

Klara:

On efficiency, I love actually using many AI tools for my podcast. So, from a process perspective including some titles, suggestions and summary descriptions I've actually found it a huge improvement in addition to my process. But actually diving into the education, I love what you mentioned because, especially at the beginning, I have read a lot of things about obviously, teachers and professors being worried that students will use this for, like cheating and essay generation, so nobody will write anymore essays, and it seems like you're actually seeing different trend and you've been passionate about education for many, many years. It's been an area that you have been focusing on professionally. Share a little bit more about that and how you see the difference of the fear that I've been reading about and maybe it's in the market versus what you see as the reality of people actually using this in a productive way.

Eve:

Yeah, I mean as I said, like education, has been a very traditional sector by design, but we see a wide adoption both in the K through 12 and in the higher ed area. Educators, like the healthcare professionals is in high risk right, especially in the US. They're not very well compensated for the work that they do. They're very thinly spread, they work with classrooms or like 40, 45 kids.

Eve:

And it's very difficult to provide that personalized learning experience that every student needs. So, if you have an AI co-pilot to help you grade like all the different tests that you need and you can free up time to spend more one-to-one time in the classroom with your students, this is great right. If you can use AI to generate or to get some ideas, like a brainstorm, around how to build a lesson plan, that's great right. You can still create the lesson plan with your trademark on it, but you don't have to start from zero, right. I think we need to find kind of like the efficiencies and the processes. Now, on the other side, I hear what you're saying will a student go to chat GPT and generate an essay and then submit it and all of that? The reality is that, yes, they can do it, but also, as an educator, you can catch this.

Eve:

There is software and there are, I think, a couple of applications that you can use I don't remember the names, but to figure out plagiarism, so it's easy to detect. And also you can kind of like see it from the language, because, yes, these lamps can generate text in a very human-like way. But A you have to be careful of the timestamp, because a lot of these models their training stopped like six months or eight months or 12 months before. So if you're writing an essay about kind of like current events, it won't really help you and you have to do the research yourself. And also there are a lot of tools that can help the educators catch, you know, this type of plagiarism. Again, I think you have to use it as a tool. It's not gonna replace the work that you do. I think there is a lot of fear like oh you know, is AI replacing the educator? No, because what you're teaching your students is around this 21st century learning skills, right, which is creativity, decision-making, critical thinking. Ai cannot do this.

Klara:

I do love the example you give, especially about grading. That's something I haven't considered, but I have read many studies around, sometimes the bias around grading and the way our minds work, and I believe even famous Daniel Kahneman writes about it in his book maybe I've read it in one of his article or his book specifically because if people grade the way our minds work, you always are biased, based on the latest report you have read, especially in essay-like answers, and so I actually wonder if this accurately constructed LLM could actually be more accurate and less biased when it comes to grading to actually provide more proper way of grade papers.

Eve:

So I love that example, just something that came into mind, yeah but I mean, you touched on a good point around bias and I think there is inherent bias in humans and also in AI models as well, and that's one of the concerns that I think everyone who is developing or using this AI models is concerned about, because these AI systems can inherit bias that is present in the data that is being used to train them, so it leads, or it can lead, to bias, prediction, bias, decision making. So that's why it's very important A as a user, to educate yourself how the model that you're using, how it has been trained, and also be very critical and test the outcomes and the results that it yields. If you are creating the models, I think it's important to make sure that there is kind of like a governance process to establish explainability, transparency around what type of data is being used for training, what is the decision making process, and have this kind of like what we call responsible AI guidelines and frameworks for how we develop and how we deploy this tools.

Klara:

I love that you mentioned it. It's something I've been pondering for quite a while. Maybe, just to give example, I think everybody has been using some sort of this smart assistant.

Klara:

I always felt especially at the beginning when I used Alexa and there's been some of these articles that people said I had to like lower my voice, hey, alexa. And when I talked to Alexa in the lower voice, that was more of like where typically men are positioned. It actually heard me better than in my high level women pitch and obviously it's not trained for understanding Czech English, but that's one example that comes to mind, but you can translate it to really anything else, because these models really use data that need to be labeled by someone. I guess now we can use perhaps automated process for even the data labeling, which can accelerate some of the LLM development.

Klara:

But that's what I've been hearing is the importance of diversity, and I again one love that we have a leader like you pioneering this trend and we need more women in this generative AI because it's going to drive sort of the advancements of many different industries, and so if we don't have kind of the right diversity set, who is looking at how to create this right models and labeling the data, that could further create a bigger gender gap in many different industries, but also bias towards like specific angle based on who's creating it. You have mentioned some of these things that people may want to adopt, to eliminate it. Anything else that's top of mind. For I guess, if you think about this technology and even your passion of creating more equality for women in leadership positions, what are you most concerned about, if anything, or what's top of your mind?

Eve:

Yeah, I mean definitely. To close the previous topic, you're absolutely right. Having diversity in the groups that develop, review and deploy this model is absolutely key, not only for gender balance, but for full representation across all different teams and types of individuals and groups, whether they're represented or not, especially for women, since we're going towards the March 8 timeframe where they give us a day, so that's good. I'm a big advocate about creating kind of equity for women, especially women in business, women in STEM, women in leadership roles. We are again going back to what we said in the beginning. We are conditioned to behave in a different way and I think we have to break a couple of molds to make sure that we bring women at the same level of opportunities as other groups. A lot of times I see women that they're not advocating for themselves and I think probably we demonstrated it even in the call, where we were self-doubting or we were double guessing. I think we have to feel comfortable to communicate and celebrate our skills, our achievements and our attributions. I know it might feel like chest thumping, but I think it's essential. You have to communicate your own words and you have to let others know, because you lead by example and also it's good to celebrate its success. The other thing that I feel like we don't do a lot or we don't do it in the right way is networking and relationship building.

Eve:

Networking is key, but I feel like a lot of times women confuse networking for creating friendships and affiliations. I think there is a big difference. Networking is very crucial for advancing your career, advancing your personal brand. It's almost like a full-time thing that you need to be committed and you need to have a goal. Networking is not leading to friendship, or it can, but that's not the goal. You should be very intentional about who you network, why you network with them, where you're trying to get out of it and really lead the engagement, whether it's like a mentorship thing or you want to use that to join a professional association or whatever the goal is. So I think networking is the second thing that I feel, like women, we need to pay attention and we need to get a little bit better on. And the other thing that I'm guilty myself, to be honest, is confidence and assertiveness. We need to make sure that we are asserting ourselves in a certain way, and this means using a certain language, using certain verbs to make sure that we're expressing our ideas in a strong way we're advocating for ourselves, because that's how you bring equity across all the different groups.

Eve:

The controversial thing is about building a personal brand. I know this is kind of like a very controversial term, because really is a personal brand. Does it make sense to create a personal brand? I'm a strong proponent of it. This might be a controversial statement for many, but a well-defined brand can really contribute to visibility, to opportunities. You have to curate your own kind of persona, not really go outside of who you are. You have to maintain the DNA of who you are what makes you tick, what makes you interesting, what makes you comfortable. But being very intentional about this curated view will open a lot of doors. I highly recommend it.

Klara:

Yes, I love all the tips you've given, eve, and I could name every single one in the past, including probably present, that I can still do better and continue to practice. Just to add totally agree on the expression and what you mentioned, even the confidence and assertiveness One of the things actually when I started doing my podcast and I'm interviewing, obviously, men and women is actually interesting when I have noticed some of the differences in tone and how men versus women express discomfort with some questions. We typically tend to kind of make it like a laugh but we make our voice a bit softer than men typically do. Obviously, I curse, serve the board that I don't have statistics other than that 68 episodes I have released, but in the context of those, it's been interesting of even just my understanding of the tone we use and how we communicate.

Eve:

Obviously, networking 100% agree, words matter, yeah absolutely Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, just to add to this point. Words really matter and I find that women use kind of like these things. So let me add my two cents, meaning, like you know, my opinion is not really super critical, but I'm going to add on. No, you're offering a point of view, it's not two cents, it can be $100, or they might say, in my opinion, well, of course, but I mean don't caveat it Right. I mean just be very assertive and use very strong words, use our statements, which I think will position you in that power role within the room.

Klara:

Yes, and having fantastic female leaders as examples actually do help. One of the things I do want to mention being an apple, I have seen way more female leaders than perhaps at Ericsson, which has been fantastic and learning from them and seeing women stepping up and leading with the assertiveness and speaking the mind At least for me it's been just so refreshing and so great to see.

Klara:

I was like, oh my God, there's this woman that's not putting herself down, but she is confident and she knows how to communicate with confidence about that specific topic and she's not afraid to step up and say no and have a different opinion, without some of these kind of words of making herself look smaller or her opinion looks smaller. And you're obviously one of those, eva, as well, that I look up to you and so it's been really fantastic to know leader like you. I want to dive in into your own career as well and just to reflect anybody who's thinking oh my God, eva's great Looks at your LinkedIn. I would love to have a career, perhaps like Eve and you know there's, I believe, no linear progression to a goal but, reflecting back on many of the roles you have had, I'm actually even curious what are some of the most fun roles and what made them fun for you.

Eve:

You've done so many different things.

Eve:

I think the roles that were interesting were a couple of the product management roles, because I think when you're in a product management kind of like environment, you have this duality. So you care about the product, the technology, creating something from scratch, but also you care about the user, the customer, the person on the other side who will really experience the service, the product, the tool. And I think, having this duality and going back and forth, kind of like how do we build it in the most efficient way? But also is it the right thing that we're? How do we make it easy to consume, to experience, how do we delight the user? But also are we stringlining the software development part of it? So you have to constantly go back and forth, which can be exhausting, but I find it really a rewarding way to kind of like you know, look at both sides of the coin and create something. So it kind of like combines the creativity and the, you know, creating something from nothing but also creating something that people will want to use and gravitate and even love.

Klara:

I love that and I think just you mentioning that example brings me also almost back to your upbringing and what you had mentioned, your journey and that curiosity and creativity of trying to find your way through and really following what you believe was interesting to you and learning from that. So I can see that connection of what you mentioned even early on. Maybe just for everybody, I want to quickly summarize you. You started your career in Microsoft early on, where you've been building skills and experience to hold high profile roles, including global director of the public sector, where you had education programs in 119 countries reaching more than 220 million students and 12 million educators. At Google Cloud, you were the head of strategic platforms, helping to transform industries with Google Clouds, technology and innovation.

Klara:

Now, as we mentioned, back at Microsoft, I'm reaching the next level of creativity and productivity for enterprise with Azure Cloud and the AI platform. You've shared some tips about even women, what we should be doing better, but I'm curious if you look back on your what sounds impressive career, I am sure there's no career like yours without some setbacks or hard learnings as well. So if you had to reflect on that, what were perhaps some of the learnings that didn't come to you. Naturally, you had to learn the hard way and you would think, oh, I think this is something that people should keep top of mind to maybe don't go through some of the hard times that I had gone through.

Eve:

I would say that earlier in my career I was very hard on myself when I would fail or something. So I was not really embracing failure as a learning opportunity. I was embracing, as you know, I'm not good enough, I'm not doing it right, I will never do it right. So I was very hard on myself. Being kind to yourself and really seeing a failure as a way to learn, as a way to make adjustments, to understand what went wrong and really use this as an experience to improve, is something that I'm kind of like getting better and I think I'm at a point now where it's kind of like water off my back, but earlier on it really took a hard toll on me.

Eve:

Another thing is prioritizing work-life balance. I know it sounds very cliche, but for someone who is very ambitious, who is very driven, who is very energetic, it's very easy to commit to your work and not have kind of like a more balanced approach. There were times that I was, you know, burning out and this was really impacting my productivity. I was not happy doing what I'm doing. I wasn't good at setting boundaries and because, again, I was very ambitious, I thought like, oh, if I would do this extra thing, I would like really grow in my career, and that's not the case. You don't have to kill yourself to grow your career. You don't have to work overtime, you don't have to dial in at five o'clock in the morning and, like you know, 9pm at night. I had to find this the hard way. It was very, very hard at times, like my 30s and my 40s.

Eve:

The other thing is, I would say, what I'm getting better now and what I wish I was much better earlier on is really cultivating that growth mindset. That was the one that kind of brought it as a concept to Microsoft and it was groundbreaking and all of that. But I mean, the more I think about it, really adopting a growth mindset where you see a challenge not as something that is stopping you or aggravating you or it's the end of all, but as an opportunity to learn and improve and also kind of like how to be resilient, are really kind of like things that I had to learn the hard way. I was really focusing on the setbacks and I was seeing them as my path to failure rather than a stepping stone to growth and success. And, you know, overall happiness.

Eve:

And then the last thing, which, again you know, I think it serves us well, both in our personal and our business life, is be clear and communicate clearly what you want. Be not only articulate in how you present your ideas and you know, how you listen actively and all of that but really be very concrete in how you want to communicate your ideas and how to present yourself and conviction, because that's a great trait of a good leader. A good leader doesn't have to say a lot of things. You have to say the right things at the right time, with the right empathy, with a very active listening, and these are things that you know can carry you in many, many situations inside and outside of work.

Klara:

It's been fantastic hearing your tips and your personal experiences, obviously about career and what we women could be doing more of to achieve our next curve, whatever that means for each of us. I have a few more questions that I wanted to ask, obviously even in relation to your job. Now, since you're creating the future of creativity and productivity for enterprises with the AI platform, what are you personally most optimistic about when it comes to this technology?

Eve:

We're really at a point where AI models are becoming very accurate, they're becoming very powerful and I think they provide a great tool for us to do our work much easier in a more efficient way. So, again, as I said, we have to really pay attention to not take everything for granted or just challenge the outcomes. I think exercise critical thinking to make sure that the systems are not hallucinating or they're not providing the wrong information. But AI, I see it as a horizontal, as kind of like a key ingredient of our everyday life, or getting stuff done easier and better and freeing up time for us to do things that are more important, more interesting.

Eve:

A lot of people talk about job displacement, for example, and the reality is that, yes, if you are doing a repetitive job, yes, your role might be at risk, but I think this opens up a lot of opportunities for new roles that will be able to use AI in order to do certain tasks.

Eve:

So what I would like to get out of that is to make sure that all of us get familiar with the advancements that are happening in the generative AI space, because in many cases, we'll need to have that training. We need to have this additional awareness and these additional skills that will help us get a better role, a more fruitful career, even if you're not a software engineer. Right, you don't have to be a developer in order to be in AI. If anything, I think we see things with prompt engineering. We see kind of like the pool opening and we're democratizing all the various groups that can code, especially now with new models that are using natural language to translate into code. We are enabling other groups to develop simple applications that they can use in their personal and their work life without having to have extensive software engineer background.

Klara:

I personally love, actually, the no code potential and progression. I know several languages, but I don't know the coding language is really one of the things. When I was at Apple, I realized how impactful you can be if you create an amazing app for people, and so I actually hope to try them out and maybe create my own application one day, without knowing how to code, so I'm really excited about that, I guess. On the opposite side, there's been a lot of talks about AI. You mentioned even AI replacing us, obviously, the scary reality that people have ethics in AI, vulnerability testing, getting rid of bias. We talked about anything else that You're personally most concerned about, if anything that you believe this is really one of the key areas we all, maybe even personally, as you mentioned we should be keeping an eye on when we're testing some of these larger language model and playing with this generative I always say that we always have a responsibility, and it's a distributed responsibility across everyone.

Eve:

There is responsibility for the teams and organizations that are developing this large language models to make sure that they are built in the most robust way, to make sure that they are explainable, they can be traced, and all of that. There is also accountability and responsibility in the user side. Don't take the outcome for granted. Make sure that you test the result, you benchmark the result, and also there is accountability at the governance side, so governments and other institutions need to create the right processes, the right guidelines, so that we can all use this technology in the most secure and private way. Obviously, here in the US, we are in an election year, so I'm concerned that there are a lot of systems that can be vulnerable to adversarial attacks. There are malicious groups that will manipulate the information to deceive everyone. So definitely investing in security, in privacy, in creating the right guardrails and introducing regulation that will enable the responsible use of AI.

Klara:

Going back to the big trend 2024, as you mentioned. What's going on? Election year? We have AI that people can use in the positive but not so positive way. We have March, the International Women's Day, coming up. Really, you can take this from any angle you want. What would you want to inspire people to be doing more of or less of in?

Eve:

2024? I love this question. I would say there are three things for me. One I would say is cultivating positive gratitude. I'm a big believer and I wasn't in the beginning, so it kind of developed over time. I believe in empathy and kindness. Small acts of kindness can get you a long way Help someone, support someone, mentor someone, sponsor someone, even if you don't know what you're getting out of it immediately. I think creating that kind of system of gratitude in terms of individuals, experiences and really integrating it as an aspect of your life creates a positive mindset. I think it makes you feel good and I believe in karma. So if you help someone and if you're kind to someone or a situation, it will come back in the most positive way for you.

Eve:

The other thing that I'm a firm, firm believer is continuous learning. There are a lot of things that are rapidly changing around us. What we learned at school, what we learned at university, what we did 10 years ago, is probably already obsolete. So exploring new skills, staying up to date with the new trends and new opportunities, will create a lot of net, new professional and personal growth. The third piece is also connected with the fast and I find it again, this is something that it grew on me over time is making sure that you get involved in your community. Yes, we are all strong and great individuals, but we're part of a whole. I find acts like volunteering in your community center, delivering meals on wheels, doing whatever fits your skill set, your interest and your soul, creates a sense of connection and it makes you feel good and it helps kind of the environment that you live in.

Klara:

I love all of those three Eve, maybe just to practice them and put them into real words now. I'm incredibly grateful for actually again meeting you, and if there's something I would like to do in my career, the highlight of actually knowing you personally it's been fantastic and I conquer your kindness has been always one of the things that stood out to me, and I've called you several times about guidance on my next steps, and so thank you for your mentorship as well, so that speaks volume also about I consider being part of my kind of support system and a strong leader that I look up to you, and so anybody who wants to reach out, follow you based on the conversation they've heard, or maybe think about how to best use the new and upcoming AI tools and platforms for their company and partnerships. What's the best way to stand out?

Eve:

First of all, I want to thank you for your time, the conversation.

Eve:

I think all your questions were very thought provoking. It made me think myself. Also, I want to commend you because you know, I know we worked and known each other for several years and I've always been impressed with your drive, with your creativity, with your also your agility and your openness to change and evolve. And you know, it was always a pleasure talking to you, working with you, and also I was always a little bit starstruck because being a professional athlete takes a lot of discipline and you know, being able to switch entirely, like you know, from a professional athlete career into a business career takes a lot of guts, so you should give yourself a lot of credit. I'm delighted that we had this time to talk about different things that might or might not be interesting to people and, once again, question people can find me on LinkedIn, at if Salty, on Twitter or ex at if Salty and yeah, I'd like to hear from you, know them and if you know if this was any helpful, if they have similar experiences and go from there Excellent.

Klara:

I'll make sure to add it to the episode notes as well. So people again is like enjoy this episode. I want to ask you to please do two things that would help me greatly. One please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, spotify or any other podcasting platform that you use to listen to this episode. Two, please share this podcast with a friend who you believe might enjoy it as well. It is a great way to remind someone you care about them by sharing a conversation they might be interested in. Thank you for listening.